@CSA2D7: Group chat on art worlds, networked art, mirrors, and crypto space

Nothing like a good group chat with friends on the McCarren Park Bench: Stephen Santoro (@stephensantoro_), David Lisser (@DavidLisser) and Kevin Buist (@KevinBuist) chat about the many art worlds, social media, networked art, their journeys in contemporary art, mirror season, and a new studio, with guest appearances from mack, deafbeef, figure31, jgc, and bushi! (1/2) Stephen Hello! Kevin Buist 🎙️ helllo? Hello? davidlisser Greetings Stephen where shall we start Kevin Buist I changed my display name I'm the real me davidlisser I am just trying to buy a vanities be with you very shortly Stephen i'll kick it off with a hypothetical what does the state of the "space" look like a decade from now? do we continue down the path of being a niche, emerging ecosystem.... or does it become normalized to a degree? Kevin Buist I think it stays fairly niche, but the art world is already a series of small art worlds that only sometimes overlap I think the market boom and bust of NFTs just helped establish this space as one art world faction among factions. It's not going to take over. Stephen i agree but no doubt this technology has the potential too? what shall hold it back? art is one use-case but my perception is that as the tech starts to become adopted more so will this little art world. Kevin Buist nothing is really holding it back, it's just that the various factions of the art world are divided by differences in shared values, not technology Stephen UX/UI, security, custodial issues? Kevin Buist yeah, those all hold it back, for sure CSA2D7 This is like the ultimate double edged sword - what makes crypto attractive makes it difficult (decentralized self custody vs. huge assets and responsibility) Stephen certainly the average 50-60 year old has hoops to jump through Kevin Buist I'm just saying that solving those issues doesn't necessary lead crypto to take over other parts of the art world davidlisser the art world is far from a homogenous beast CSA2D7 Kevin, can you talk a little bit about differences in shared values that you mentioned? Kevin Buist Sure, I'm thinking partly about this. Andrea Fraser did a pretty good job of mapping things out [Editor’s note: Kevin inserts a link to an e-flux article “the field of contemporary art a diagram”] davidlisser ah good reference - I had this in the back of my mind, but couldn't recall any of the keywords! Stephen for sure. my perspective is that there are a group of people out there who wonder wtf is happening here with really no way of "entering". yeah they could go out and get exposure a few different ways but it's not necessarily "easy". which i guess brings me back to the greater art world haha. Kevin Buist I think it's a matter of what people think art is and what they want it to accomplish. It's tricky, because even people who spend a lot of time with this stuff have a hard time answering those questions. But I think the various factions of the art world are material articulations of what people want art to be and do. Stephen so are we just repeating history? another misunderstood group of people who inevitably get filtered out with time? which ultimately leads us to survival of the fittest? davidlisser fwiw my journey has gone a little like this: [Editor’s note: David inserts his modified image of Fraser’s contemporary art diagram with a red loopy arrow beginning on art history, touching on social activism, community cultural centers, local galleries, and ending on financial markets.] Kevin Buist Incredible davidlisser trying to dip my toe in the 'art-market' but I never lived in London, NYC etc - which genuinely still makes a difference (unfortunately) Kevin Buist for sure Stephen for sophisticated people i'm not sure this to be true. Bushi We assume that the “art” continues as simple visual jpeg NFTs that require specific ui/ux. What if that’s not the case and its abstracts further away into something more? Kevin Buist When I worked for an art nonprofit I remember a fundraising consultant saying that donors to arts orgs can be sorted into different groups. Some love the art and believe in the mission, but others are really just writing a check in order to go to the party. It's a social thing. There were other categories as well. The point was to find ways to cater to them all. That's for fundraising, but even in market-focused parts of the art world, it's still true that you have people with very different motivations coalescing around one scene. And people will actually lie about why they are there. Stephen want in the sense that maybe it's pretty or cool. a lot of art should imo exemplify commentary on the times. that makes for uncomfortable art, unthinkable art, ambitious art, unpopularized art, political art, technical art, conceptual art.... this space is pretty open. the market may not like it but I feel it is important. CSA2D7 Do you think its better to lie about your interest in art, or say that you don't like art (very generally)? I think the former is better, maybe? Stephen most definitely true. Bushi These are the same people that have to hire art consultants to tell them what to buy for their house Kevin Buist I'm not sure. People come into those scenes in all different ways, and that's probably good. Stephen pretty sure that applies to society as a whole haha and not just art. Kevin Buist Exactly davidlisser finding ways to cater for all of them is an impressive feat to pull off - but I've often found there is a certain curiosity about the 'other' which happens around art scenes. Finance people intrigued by artists, Artists secretly interested in money, curators actually wanting to do social work but scared of the social-work landscape CSA2D7 Its hard! Its a difficult thing, I don't look down on that behavior necessarily Stephen what's wrong with this? Kevin Buist I still remember first going to Art Basel shortly after graduating from art school and realizing that pretty much everyone who could afford to buy anything also didn't know what they were looking at. Stephen capital ART CSA2D7 But isnt there this inherent contradiction in us saying art can be anything and then saying art is this particular thing? Kevin Buist how so? Bushi Because displaying art has no functional value outside of signaling taste. If you have to have someone tell you what taste is, what’s the point? Figure31 What? CSA2D7 I want to be open and say that anything can be art, but I go to the MoMA which is in charge of showing me all of the "best" art? davidlisser oh I took it to mean that the people buying the art didn't know what they were looking at in a 'knowledge' sense, rather than a taste sense Stephen ugh bushi you purist!! Kevin Buist Anything can be art, but there's a system in place for setting up something to be considered on those terms. CSA2D7 But let's go to Kevin's idea of no-mind that he brought up a little bit ago, if that is some sort of state worth working towards, shouldn't one have no knowledge and no taste? Kevin Buist I've got a fave link on this, hold on… Stephen education, investment, resources.... to name just a few. you can passively enjoy art without having to spend every second learning about it. that's what good curators or consultant provide. access to information, a way of seeing or thinking, guidance to pursuing a larger vision. CSA2D7 Shouldn't one be open to every piece of art as potentially meaningful, but in different ways? Rather than ranked in some sort of hiearchy where we are saying a piece is better than the other? Kevin Buist [Editor’s note: Kevin inserts a link to weak universalism] Bushi Tell me the functional value then 0xdeafbeef 'anything can be art' doesn't mean 'everything is art' just means you can't reject anything 'a priori', like perhaps was once done: "If it's made with a computer, not art" Figure31 i'm not sure where to start davidlisser i keep starting sentences and then deleting them Figure31 the bench will do that to you [quietly fades back into the background] Kevin Buist Yeah, several threads running here... Stephen subjectivity is my favorite part of art. the blockchain art world would make leaps and bounds if people could freely express themselves without getting attacked by consensus. davidlisser what do you mean by 'attacked by consensus? Stephen if a certain artist or collection is in favor. god for bid, you negatively criticized it. Kevin Buist I will say that it's tempting to say that art can be defined as thoughtful objects that don't have a functional value, but art breaks rules, so some art definitely has a functional value. davidlisser oh like the toxic positivity of Twitter timelords Stephen it kills me davidlisser i just ignore it Bushi I can agree with the functional breaking part Stephen imo it's not worth ignoring. so many artists would grow and scale significantly with some genuine advice. Kevin Buist David, is a mirror a work of art? Why or why not? davidlisser a mirror alone, no but how an artist presents a mirror and why Potentially Kevin Buist A mirror, no what a mirror reflects, yes Bushi What about those driftwood sticks at the moma Stephen presentation is so important. underrated skill in digi art davidlisser yes - or doesn't reflect, as we've seen with SHL0MS and as we hopefully will see with my work in September Kevin Buist Being in MoMA makes it art. Even I'm an artwork when I'm there. davidlisser I feel like an artefact CSA2D7 David loves these simple objects with huge underlying depth (flowers, mirrors) mackdav (meat) Kevin Buist Of course one of the best mirror artworks is Lichtenstein [Editor’s note: Kevin inserts a link to Roy Lichenstein’s “Mirror #1 at The Broad] And a painting of a "mirror" which is not really a mirror also has a lot to say about use value. Stephen i've been hunting this lichtenstein for years. unfortunately too rare and expensive. [Editor’s note: Stephen links to “Moonscape” by Roy Lichenstein] Figure31 [mungo thompson & gerhard richter] CSA2D7 David if you were to hold up a mirror to this conversation, how would you portray it davidlisser I have no idea. sorry. 😂 Stephen presentation will tell you a lot about a piece of art or the artist prior to even making an interpretation on the work. davidlisser which is one of the (many) reasons that I hate we are so reliant on Twitter. so to go back to your original question, maybe Twitter is holding us all back also tru Stephen i have a sweet spot for ben day dots to an extent for sure. CenTrALiZAtioN. Kevin Buist Twitter is holding us back, true. davidlisser oh but also just the format - like you can only experience a pastiche of most of the artwork on there. By pastiche i mean a low-quality, physically small, jpeg or mp4 that is supposed to represent a whole-ass artwork Stephen it's funny because about 5 years I changed from instagram to twitter with the rise of NFTs. davidlisser exactly the same here Stephen i've found myself reading way more than looking. but i trained my eye extensively and now my conceptual thinking has strengthened so it sort of worked out for me Bushi It’s not so much Twitter that holds us back but rather the loss of concentration from information overload that our society has created. People just don’t have the bandwidth to read or understand more than a tweet sized idea anymore. Which is why collectibles do so well, it either registers immediately or it doesn’t, there isn’t anything to understand. davidlisser ah ok - that makes sense for me, as an artist, its kinda like “hey guys - look at this little screenshot... if you follow this link (which might get supressed) you can actually experience the artwork how i intended it. trust me bro- its way better” Kevin Buist for all its faults, Twitter is the way I became connected with this entire space CSA2D7 I dunno why, but I think I'm one of the few people that thinks that X / twitter is a real signal in a world of information. Certainly there is bad information, but there is also a lot of good information. Its like being a decisionmaker, you want as much info as you can get and then judge which is reliable? davidlisser this is very true. Perhaps collectibles are truly medium-native in that sense Kevin Buist I do think there's something to be said for a small digital image becoming the stand-in for all aesthetic experiences, even ones that can never be conveyed through a screen. Stephen so important to have your own website. hopefully that way people can understand your work in the way that you intend or at least educate in a format that is more applicable. davidlisser and yeah, of course i have that - but the percentage that visit is smol Bushi I blame money. If we weren’t all worried about paying bills, which leads to overworking, which leads to fatigue everything else, we would be able to sit around all day and ponder Art. Which is probably why it’s more of a wealthy person thing….not because the poor aren’t capable, they literally don’t have the time. davidlisser oooh thats an interesting thought, can you expand it a wee bit for me? Kevin Buist There are twitter bots that post images from various art historical artists, and I always loved the Agnes Martin one precisely because the works CANNOT be transmitted through a screen. There's something about the futility of it that I enjoy. Reminds me that paintings are things, not just images. Stephen agnes is great now that i can appreciate it. it took me a long time to "understand". the natural progression of an enjoyer. davidlisser yep, absolutely. and even the things that can be transmitted through a screen, cant be transmitted through Twitters API Kim Asendorfs PXL DEX for example Bushi I like Twitter, without it I’d not be able to do what I’m doing. Now I can connect with people like you all here which otherwise likely wouldn’t have. Kevin Buist I think that twitter and instagram have probably led digital artists to be too reliant on images in general, and a certain scale and type of digital image in particular, when the format can do much more. davidlisser YES Stephen Constraints!! davidlisser Boooo Stephen one of the most important parts of art i'm not joking haha. a set of constraints will bring an artist much farther than being in an open field. davidlisser yes but… (hang on.. it'll take me a moment to formalise this) Kevin Buist I think this reliance on small digital images also makes AI much more alluring. People get tricked into thinking that AI can make images just like great painters, but they forget that a tiny digital image of a painting is a very poor approximation of what that image actually is. Figure31 re: ad reinhardt black paintings (for the record, i'm reserving the rights to make a digital version of that series) davidlisser constraints within a chosen framework are good, otherwise the world is just completely open. But i would prefer that the constraints happen at the art making level, not at the art display level. Now I know there is merit there too, but to have made an absolutely massive painting, only to find you have to chop it down to get it in the gallery would be a little disheartening. and then you find the lighting is really bad, and the humidity controls are completely out of whack Stephen def agree. the display and the presentation should be considered though within the art making process imo. there is nuance here of course but the best will go to the edges to ensure it's perceived how they want. if the medium of Twitter limits the impact that your art has, go a different route. like publishing on a website, do a pop-up, partner with a gallery, present in physical formats.... davidlisser yeh agreed, totally. I'm just trying to say that much of the attention of blockchain art is centered around Twitter, and diverting it those other forums increases friction, and our space hates friction Kevin Buist But the constraint is enforced because that's where the conversation is happening, it's the field of discourse in which the work needs to exist, in a certain sense. Stephen i love friction haha maybe that's why i'm a turtle in the art world. slow pace, appreciate, take it all in. Kevin Buist artworks need to be in conversation with each other, and that conversation is often on twitter (unfortunately) Stephen then maybe i'll start to understand it Kevin Buist I would love it if the whole scene up and moved to Bluesky, but it's not davidlisser ok ok - where do we think digital art should be in conversation with eachother then? should it be galleries, websites, train stations? Stephen right and this super interesting to note. art of the past wasn't necessarily integrated in with discourse or finances. again nuanced but you get the point. tokenization is a whole new medium. our considerations have expanded tremendously. there's a lot more to consider imo. Kevin Buist I think social media generally is a pretty good tool for discussing art, it works, but I would like to see more robust critical outlets. Essays and then essays arguing with those essays, etc. Stephen yes and no we could achieve a lot more in person, which is my preference Kevin Buist well yeah but i live in the midwest i mean, come over anytime Bushi I think everyone wants that, but nobody wants to put the effort in to do it lol davidlisser and I live on a different continent 😂 Stephen even over a call though. i feel it's hard to express myself purely through text sometimes. this goes for my relationships too not just art CSA2D7 But if the essay is the ideal form of communicating, its with text? Kevin Buist I like text and i loved twitter, in its glory days Stephen i use socials religiously but i often think about how much time i'm wasting. we'll never be able to replicate the in person experience. the younger generations will just live online and never truly understand what it was like. CSA2D7 I like both, but with in-person conversations there is more pressure to conform your thoughts Kevin Buist there is a lot wrong with it now, but i think one of the worst things is letting people write really long tweets. Atrocious. CSA2D7 Really? You don't have to read the long tweets? That's how I write most of my essays Its only if you click on the more button Kevin Buist for the love of God, please do not write blog post-length tweets. CSA2D7 I dunno, it works for me Kevin Buist i don't know, i just don't like them, maybe i'm too old school joined twitter in '07, i'm a cranky purist lol, sorry CSA, i forgot you did that, oops, i'm offending the host CSA2D7 Na, I like hearing varying opinions! I know what I like and maybe learn to like I mean the reason I think the internet is very hard is because most people dont know themselves well and so they are subject to a lot of disinformation Kevin Buist this has been fun, unfortunately i must step away Stephen gonna stay for 20min longer and then go get some lunch davidlisser one of the reasons i like (good) discord servers is that it feels a lot like old chat-rooms where people actually have good conversations Bushi Something I really liked from the gaming communities was old school teamspeaks or ventrillo with a handful of people 24/7 online for verbal conversations Surprised we haven’t seen it adopted here Stephen how many of us have a double life? an online persona and an IRL one. think about what we can achieve with AI now. it won't be limited to two personas. CSA2D7 I dont really think about it as double lives because that suggests a falsehood Its just more like you have many perspectives but you're still the same person. The digital and the in person have different characteristics but they can complement Stephen yeah true. i guess it's hard to reckon with not being understood by a lot of people CSA2D7 I mean if our goal is to be understood by many people we will always fail, no matter who. This is the nature of being a specific human being. Its more important to be understood by those you want to be understood by Stephen right but part of my goal is to actively introduce this world to new audiences. with that comes a ton of failure and rejection. which i've stomached for years haha. CSA2D7 Well Im here to urge you to continue on 😊 CSA2D7 David, I need to know more about this Mirror work you've been teasing on X davidlisser haha ok sure - any specific questions or shall i just monologue? i'll monologue, briefly CSA2D7 Why dont you give us a short thing and then we will follow up? davidlisser So the works are pointclouds of mirrors in the natural and built environment. all done via photogrammetry They will be presented as the actual pointclouds that you can navigate in and around and through, natively in-browser. and when you do, you'll notice that the reflective plane of the mirror does not reconstruct, as opposed to the foliage/framing/walls - basically everything that surrounds the mirror. Essentially, computer vision (of which photogrammetry is a subsection) has no way of understanding reflections. So this technical limitation symbolises a wider truth - that artificial vision has no sense of the self I could drop a sneaky lil link here if we promise to keep it within these walls CSA2D7 Ok Im gonna remind myself to remove it from the X transcript davidlisser may take a moment to load, depending on your device, but here's a little preview: [Editor’s note: I remembered] I've scanned ~50 mirrors in total, so this is just a little selection CSA2D7 Very cool, just reading and playing with it a little bit. I think mackdav is already aware of this project? Did you work together> davidlisser indeed! I dunno how much he's allowed to say - but yes, we've worked on it together CSA2D7 Ok, is it a coincidence that shl0ms just released a project also about mirrors and an inability to reflect? davidlisser haha yes mirror szn CSA2D7 And Mack worked on both of them! Stephen these are cool! curious what the role is of the environment of these? looks like the mirrors are juxtaposed within branches or nature. CSA2D7 My understanding is that its used to convey what the mirror cannot show (because a computer doesn't see reflections in the mirror) and creates superficial depth so to speak or maybe an irreality is better davidlisser yeh thats right, initially I was scanning mirrors as I stumbled across them - which didnt happen all that often tbh. But i used to live in a pretty rural area, and so found mirrors in fields or whatever, and just really liked the strange context Mirrors are very human things, so why would I find them in nature. But then i started to essentially create my own little 'diorama' or still life kinda assemblages by purposefully inserting them in nature Stephen can computers see? love that you view it as a still life. that's cool. davidlisser no but they can extract information from images which is a kind of vision if not strictly seeing its 'confusing' light and space. or rather reclassifying light as XYZ space Bushi Do we not do the same thing? davidlisser tomato tomato oh wait... that doesnt work in text CSA2D7 Im curious about you stumbling on mirrors in the wild.. did you ever get an explanation? Was it multiple times or were you just really struck by encountering one in nature! davidlisser it only happened a couple of times - and yes it was quite memorable a bit of a wtf moment but also very beautiful but I am intrigued by how the process classifies information, i.e. misreading of depth, of visual space etc in a different convo, Kevin asked me if these were within the discipline of photography or sculpture and i thought that was a very insightful question CSA2D7 What was your answer?