@CSA2D7: Sabato Visconti and I chat about life, markets, failure, AI, shitcoins

Sabato Visconti (@sabatobox) and I get personal on the McCarren Park Bench - we chat about life, family, primary and secondary markets, smith girls, failure, glitch, AI, shitcoins, waste (moma ps1), and lists! (1/2) CSA2D7 "Sabato has sought to interrogate imaging practices that have become absorbed by digital processes, hybridized media, online networks, and machine intelligence –technologies that have also enabled apparatuses for social conditioning, mass surveillance, and necropolitics, through works that captures the plight of the subject in the face of environmental turbulence driven by systems designed to fail and malfunction." sabatobox ::stretches arms and calves:: CSA2D7 Heya sabato! I am amped! Just eating some cherries. Did you eat lunch yet? sabatobox i had a breakfast sandwich about 20 minutes ago and a bottle of pelegrino 🙂 CSA2D7 breakfast sandwich? sabatobox yes there's a local bakery chain called Tandem Bagels and I get an egg and cheese with roasted red peppers and spinach on focaccia i dont think its anything as good as like a NY bodega sandwich but it hits the spot CSA2D7 It sounds very nice. Not all bodega spots carry spinach Do you like the chopped cheese from bodegas? sabatobox Yeah I do CSA2D7 I actually never knew what the name for chopped cheese was I just used to go to my local bodega and point sabatobox lol same, i think with tiktok a lot of these things became formalized CSA2D7 It was not till years later when I watched youtube trends about this new chopped cheeses that I found out yea! That's what I was gonna say holy crap sabatobox not just tiktok, youtube and social media in general CSA2D7 well said sabato sabatobox it feels like its sort of a plague on the city no? like with more formalization of these social practices, you get more influencers with checklists wanting to turn NYC into some kind of main character disneyworld experience increases gentrification and displacement, etc CSA2D7 Ah, I see I dunno, that's a very complicated question with a lot of difficult subject matters sabatobox True CSA2D7 As for myself, I've lived amongst the poorest and the richest (from an economic perspective), and I can tell you that the poorest want to be the richest and the richest sometimes want aspects of the poor sabatobox this could just be a virtual narrative too, i get a lot of tiktoks about how the city is overrun with transplant influencers its an endless cycle CSA2D7 Kind of. Gentrification and White flight are kind of flip sides of the same coin for me Who is leaving, who is staying btw how the hell did we go from breakfast sandwiches to gentrification and whiteflight in five minutes I feel like Im in some sort of AI slop sabatobox Yes, ive heard the data on gentrification is much more complex than people seem. hahaha these tangents CSA2D7 I think generally people like some aspects of gentrification - everyone wants to live in a safer environment, a more prosperous environment, etc. etc. What we don't like is the displacement But how do you have one without the other? In a capitalist society or even a non capitalist society! There is no easy answer - but there is a reason why college students grapple onto certain concepts so fiercely because they are just beginning to see the black and white issues, maybe a little grey sabatobox yeah to me this seems to be a symptom of a more widespread systemic problem, like the unavailability of housing and lack of development, than like something with adequate local solutions. In my neighborhood which is already one with lots of professors and upper-middle class people, shit keeps getting more expensive and inaccessible im like one of the few renters on the street and it feels like it wont be for long mostly bc we have people moving in from NY and Cali bc cost of living is slightly cheaper here, but then that drives up housing insecurity and cost of living for everyone CSA2D7 there's a reason why they say ignorance is bliss. Seeing the benefit and cost of everything is difficult and can be extremely unjust. sabatobox its a lot of grey areas, but i think theres black and white things that could be addressed to keep things more even for everyone. Like banning private equity firms from buying single-family homes CSA2D7 But is that good for everyone? Private equity fills the gap when there is no demand? sabatobox or making zoning laws more open to condos and multi-family buildings CSA2D7 Could be, but not everyone likes multi-family buildings either? They can change the environment of a place and make it feel more city like sabatobox maybe in some cases, but not in most housing markets imho CSA2D7 Think about it from the perspective of the art market - wouldn't you want someone buying art if there is no one else? I think if you look at the y/o/y on the housing market its been hit very differently depending on your geographic area (from an owner's perspective) sabatobox it really depends! tbh, ive had collectors that have swooped in and bought out entire editions of works but then years later they will flip it for nothing bc they need liquidity and i would've rather they just got one edition like everyone else CSA2D7 Sure, but the secondary market is less of a concern for you than the primary market? I mean the two are tied together, but in one the money directly hits your pocket, in the other its very indirect sabatobox i guess we're pivoting from the contentious housing market discussion lol probably for the better hahaha CSA2D7 I think its all tied together! Who benefits, who pays, why our incentives change sabatobox i do worry about the secondary market, not too much bc you cant do much about it, but lately ive been thinking of ways to shepherd it to higher ground. My strategy has shifted since 2022 when i was trying to get as many editions out to as many people as possible CSA2D7 Tell me about your time at Amherst? sabatobox Sure. I went to Amherst College and ended up with a degree in Political Science. But it was a hard time for me. I was an undocumented immigrant and this was before DACA and the Dreamer thing really took off. I didnt get financial aid so i paid for most of my college out of pocket and I made most of the money by selling digital pianos and keyboards on eBay through an online store i made with my dad. I started as a biology major but flunked out sophomore year bc i realized i wanted to be an artist also i was partying too much with Smith girls CSA2D7 What was so attractive to you about Smith girls? sabatobox I grew up in a very sheltered religious home bc of my dad so when attractive girls show up in your dorm room on a saturday night saying "can we do some cocaine here" you get hyped lol CSA2D7 Ministering angels sabatobox no regrets, when i started trying to be an artist forreals, many of those girls donated money to get my first solo show going 🙂 CSA2D7 So, what happened after you flunked out sophomore year? sabatobox i had to go to UMASS for a semester to get my grades up. My dad who was strict and sometimes abusive, never found out i flunked out so i pretended i was still going to amherst college, but i was laundering the tuition money we were paying back to me so i can afford an apartment and classes at UMass, it worked out bc UMass is so much cheaper but i also bought myself my first digital camera and started taking photos i also started trying to create my own drawing style, moving away from the cartoons i used to draw since i was a kid so i had a lot of growth during that time despite flunking out, like baby artist growth CSA2D7 Those are trying times. Do you want to talk about your father, or is it enough to leave it as "strict and sometimes abusive"? sabatobox i can talk about it if you want lol our relationship has gotten much better in the last years CSA2D7 I think it might be interesting, but this is a semi-public, (and then public) conversation sabatobox oh shit then maybe not too much since its public lol CSA2D7 You can always redact whatever you want either Or choose to not post it on X if you don't want sabatobox i forgot this is a "live" hahaha CSA2D7 It is, but I mean right now its just the folks in the discord sabatobox im happy to talk about it in broad strokes tho CSA2D7 Well, why don't we talk about your relationship with your father now since it is better? Do you see him often? sabatobox like once or twice a year, especially when my kid brother was living near/with him. Lil bro is now going to college in Virginia tho so idk when i'll see my dad next. CSA2D7 Do you call him or facetime him? sabatobox sometimes, i used to avoid him like the plague and had a few falling outs with him CSA2D7 And is it usually you who returns? or him? sabatobox he's, to say the least, a very complicated person. i think deep inside he means well but hes got some OCD and deep traumas to deal with, and tbh he's gotten really better in the last years, so maybe there is hope for people with difficult parents that there can be reconciliation and growth even after long periods of stasis when i was a kid, he got caught up in lots of fundamentalist religious things. He was deep into new age stuff and afro-brazilian religions when i was little, then he had a Jesus moment where he was saved and suddenly i had to go to evangelical church all the time, but then he learned that his mother had jewish roots that were hidden when the family emigrated from italy to brazil before WW2 so then he was like super jewish, and i got Bar Mitzvahed and all that, we went to a lot of Jewish congregations including conservative and chabad. it was intense when i went to college i didnt want any of it and that was a big falling out CSA2D7 Did you have a relationship with your mother? sabatobox yes, i was child of divorce so i grew up with my father. didnt have a relationship with my mom until i was a teenager but we have a good relationship, i visit her every year in Brazil and get along with her well she and her family have always been supportive of my and my art career my dad much less so but now, as ive said, he's changed a bit. I have a work up in the FILE festival in Sao Paulo and i told him about it, he said he went there 4 times to see it which is touching, the work is not even on a major screen its in a carousel CSA2D7 It was your parents decision for you to stay and be raised by your father? sabatobox yes, my mother felt i would have more opportunities in the US CSA2D7 This must have been so difficult for both of your parents sabatobox for my mom especially she left my dad and had to start over from scratch i know she struggled a lot but ultimately managed to get a decent gig and make enough money to buy her own place CSA2D7 Im trying my best not to project, but with my experiences I know how brutal it is to raise children with a partner, I can't imagine how difficult it is to do it alone Or be away from my children sabatobox it really takes a village my partner has two kids of her own and it feels like there arent enough parent figures lol CSA2D7 It is very hard to be a parent... I don't think there should be more than two because they are THE authority figures (in my mind) Decentralization is a very interesting concept, but from a governance perspective, it is always more helpful when there are limited folks in power IMO sabatobox idk, here i have a big Brazilian family that i miss dearly. I agree that the two parents are the central authority, but we need the aunties and uncs and abuelas so much. I took my whole family down to Brazil this year, it was the first time for my stepkids and i think they were blown away by how tight knit my mom's side of the family is and how everyone was there for each other CSA2D7 Oh yea for sure! But they have different roles! sabatobox still very important tho, here in the US people put all the responsibility on the two parents and i feel that can be crushing esp for the couple's relationship, its hard how many kids do you have? CSA2D7 Well, not my family, we rely on many. But the buck stops with me, and I (and my partner) am solely responsible for my children's actions until they are old enough Two! sabatobox NIce! are they teens yet? CSA2D7 No, they are still cute lil ones They are my world (and my wife of course) sabatobox aww congrats 🙂 CSA2D7 There are just certain things in life that cannot be expressed with words, and children and the right partner are some of those things IMO sabatobox this is true CSA2D7 But art! Art could be one of those things? When I read your artist statement I thought to myself - this is deep conceptual stuff. I normally associate Sabato with pretty glitch aesthetics and video games sabatobox weve been talking about personal stuff for 45 minutes lol CSA2D7 Do you have to go? sabatobox no im pretty much free all afternoon CSA2D7 But when I heard you talk about brainrot, it all tied together. I mean glitch is really about failure sabatobox Yes, glitch is really where I started my real journey as an artist There's an artist named Nick Briz, he has this youtube video on glitch where he describes it as a "glitch ethic" and i think that's the best way to categorize my approach to art CSA2D7 I am not familiar with this video? How would you describe your approach to art? Or I guess how would you describe what glitch ethic means to you? sabatobox [Editor’s note: Sabato inserts a link to Nick Briz’s youtube video on Glitch Art] sharing it here in case anyone wants to check it out as a digital artist, we are constantly finding ourselves in standardized mediated environments, especially if you are working with digital media. like if you are working as a commercial creative, there are specific pipelines and workflows you hae to use, theres specific production standards on a grander scale you have software and social media conglomerates who manage many of the information vectors we have in our digital world the glitch ethic basically asks, how can i break free from these tightly regulated environments how do i, as an artist, maintain control of my means of production? in terms of AI, which is designed to conceal glitches and flaws, the ethic is about finding liminalities and perpetuating them like the 6-fingered hands of 2022 and now its brainrot, it follows this same kind of criticality and approach CSA2D7 Let me ask you about AI though, because I just had a conversation with Kevin Buist about this To him, there is less of a tie between the output and input and tracking the means of production Do you think there's truth to that in your AI practice (vs your more traditional glitch practice)? I guess I am alluding to the giant black box of AI and choice of datasets sabatobox what do you mean by less of a tie? CSA2D7 Hm, let me try to get at what my interpretation of what Kevin was saying Kevin was saying - with respect to generative art, one could look at an output from Casey Reas and see how Casey's code affected the aesthetics and interaction of Casey's outputs sabatobox ahh i see what you are sayinh CSA2D7 And he was contrasting this with AI (in this case, Sam Spratt's work masquerade) and saying that he could not track or see the tie because (I think) there's this massive blackbox that hides and jiggles the human prompt from its production sabatobox honestly, as a glitch artist, i'm mostly working with black boxes like i can do some programming but i'm not a programming wiz like Kim Asendorf so when i approach a video game or a new tech, im creating glitches intuitively as opposed to having a deterministic understanding of the code many glitches are deterministic in this sense, like if you set up the programming in such a way you'll get the same output but usually as a glitch artist you are manipulating code or instigating malfunctions using unorthodox means like i can open some image formats in an hexadecimal editor and know exactly which bytes to change to cause a specific glitch but i cant code that shit to save me lol CSA2D7 Would you say though, that there is more control with glitch art than with AI art (as it stands)? For instance, even if you are not using code or programming the input, you are still deciding what scene to choose, when to start, when to stop, how it might look in a way that is not necessarily as controllable with AI? sabatobox so idk the black box of AI is just another one to the black box of a videogame or the black box of something like snapchat's face-swap filter i'd say that you have more of a relationship with the media you are glitching CSA2D7 But with a filter you can manipulate the effect more, no? Or is this not the case when you are doing your AI art? Like with the filter you're still choosing the subject matter? The direct subject matter I should say sabatobox both glitch and AI are highly iterative, you are creating lots of outputs and curating the best ones CSA2D7 So with glitch its about failure - with AI we don't really have the six finger problem anymore... how do you seek failure? or do you? sabatobox you choose the subject matter with prompting tho dont you? or you can upload a seed image, i do that often to confuse the AI and get weird slop i definitely seek the failures 🙂 CSA2D7 Agreed - but what you get with that weird slop is a little bit more out of your control even if you are uploading a seed image? With glitch the foundational image stays the same even if certain pixels or elements are being manipulated? sabatobox i do find making glitch art much more satisfying for what its worth, i think ultimately you get to feel responsible for most of the decisions you made in a glitch art work with AI outputs, most of the decisions are randomized CSA2D7 Yea, that's what I was thinking sabatobox the same can be true with glitch, but something about the process makes you feel like you are more in control like you do have more responsibility over the source material than with AI which is often a prompt CSA2D7 Well, you talk about the importance of artistic control, but much of your concept is about larger systematic failures - is there some tension here for you? sabatobox yes, i love the contradictions between the subject and the systemic CSA2D7 What are you currently in love with? You recently released work with feral file and curated brainrot for the tezos blockchain sabatobox hahah hard to say (im in love with my wife ofc) Lol i do love following aesthetic trends and zeitgeists, that was the inspiration for the brainrot curation. The Feral File thing was a preset theme but it worked out for me given my history with religion and the fact that i know way too much about the bible. I am fascinated with the more esoteric and historical aspects, like apocryphas and stuff like that CSA2D7 The feral file release was the first time I collected a Sabato piece, I really enjoyed that How did you get into listmaking? I thought your last list was a piece of art and a great list sabatobox thank you, means a lot since your lists are like the reference i was hoping you'd keep doing your list and we'd have multiple lists lol i tend not to be a fan of lists and rankings but its so inevitable in this space and i got tired of people posting "these are the 5 important NFT Art" and it was like the same artists from 2021 over and over again your list was the first one that even considered work being minted on tezos i found that inspiring and thought we need more lists like this like just looking at the work that is being put out and say this is what sticks i got tired of never seeing artists i love be mentioned so i thought, better do it yourself lol CSA2D7 Yeah, exactly Honestly I was really happy when you came up (independently) with your lists I think I do like lists for myself, and I realize there cultural importance, but yeah for sure Its like saying I like art, or I like music - yeah, but it depends on what exactly we are talking about 😂 sabatobox its just hard to keep track of everything that comes out like i missed that Rhea had a new work out in the last month or so CSA2D7 Honestly I stopped doing them and its so hard to keep track of anything I freaking love Rhea and I forgot to put fractionalize phallus on my list for whatever reason Or I had it on my list twice because I forgot I put it there once... sigh administrative nightmares lol sabatobox lol it happens often i saw Reuben Wu's new photos yesterday and realized they came out in June and was like damn missed that one lol CSA2D7 Yeah, stuff shows up on my timeline and Im like hmm... that's really nice. Oh wait its from 2023. If Im having trouble tracking that stuff, imagine… sabatobox its so much coming out and i hardly see whats happening on solana and btc ordinals CSA2D7 Yea, its on my radar but I don't see it nearly as much sabatobox or avalanche or the other chains CSA2D Yea Im actually happy I caught Sarah Friend's work on that chain, formachain or modular or something sabatobox on avax? CSA2D7 It ended up being the #1 work for me last year 😂 Don't ask me anything about the chain I have no idea what it is sabatobox lmao its important to keep your mind open, so much amazing art coming from everywhere i started just listing works of art that arent on the blockchain that i love CSA2D7 Yeah. The funny thing is making lists tends to close ones mind, so thats why I think its important that I take a step back a little and you do yours I mean after a while it does, you just started so you're good 😂 sabatobox i get that, i can see me getting tired of doing this after a few months lol CSA2D7 Don't worry Im sure someone will take up the mantle But keep on doing it while you love it for sure sabatobox but im going to try to go to the end of the year ive been enjoying it CSA2D7 You got this - you are killing it. You should absolutely include non-blockchain works if thats what you love sabatobox Yes, a song from the new Clipse album will be on the July list lol CSA2D7 Brilliant 🔥 sabatobox its gotten me to check out genres that i dont collect enough of, like gen art definitely spent time on the new fxhash this month CSA2D7 I need to look at fxhash stuff. People have been telling me about the coin and I have no idea what it is sabatobox the coin aspect is the worst part of it lol im not a fan of this whole artist coin/creator coin meta but the art itself is still good CSA2D7 What are your thoughts on this artist coin / creator coin meta? I kind of expressed my opinion on it yesterday in the discord, but its not fully formed I need to find out more sabatobox overall, i dont like it, but i do think it's great for artists to experiment with shitcoins and coins in general. My issue is that it's practically forced on people with these new platform pivots, and forced in a very extractive way that won't benefit 99% of artists Sterling Crispin had a post that details how bad the tokenomics are and i think he's on point its designed to ruf your followed at the expense of your reputation rug your followed* followers* sorry im typing too fast lol CSA2D7 Typos are one of the inherent and core features of this bench sabatobox Phew CSA2D7 Let me ask - how do you reconcile experimenting with something where the tokenomics are what they are? sabatobox i also think a creator coin is very reductive. Lots of artists have careers outside of web3 and we know that the web3 market is really inefficient at pricing in IRL exhibitions and publications and commissions i think its about the distance you have from the coin to your IRL person/reputation like I think Shl0ms and Rhea would have an easier time with making art about coins bc everyone knows them by their conceptual frameworks. i dont think i can just make a zora creator coin bc i dont want to represent my glitch art and pixel art, i would need a pseudonym or a conceptual project to pull that off i fucked up in 2011 when i decided to use my real name lol CSA2D7 But there's still going to be some party that gets hurt from the token? Ok Sabato: How many artist pseudonyms do you have? 😂 sabatobox if they are buying expecting the token to appreciate lol honestly just Sabato, but i do have alts for different projects, like i have an ecco the dolphin alt for that glitch project CSA2D7 Do you think if folks go in knowing they are buying a lottery ticket, that absolves the creator in a sense through some sort of assumption of risk by the folks buying?