@CSA2D7: edg and jiwa discuss generative art's future post-AB500

Irrespective of how you feel about AB500 - it happened! What then is the future of generative art? Two GOFGA'rs (good old fashioned gen art), edg (@eeedg__ ) and jiwa (@dotjiwa) give their opinions on generative, generally and specifically, on the McCarren Park Bench, the first out of four chats on Super Tuesday! CSA2D7 Heya jiwa and edg jiwa hey there 🙂 edg Howdy CSA2D7 Great to see you both! Im excited to see how this unfolds between the two of you I think loosely the topics to be covered include some of your recent and upcoming projects, in addition to how you think about generative art going forward, with the announcement of AB500 and the new model AB has put in place for independent releases? jiwa great... lets get into it. edg, you've been in the gen art game for a while. I’m sure you've seen ebbs and flows in interest/activity over the years, what’s your opinion on where gen art is now say post '21 hype? edg I think it's clear that the low-hanging fruit has been picked, and the constraints of the medium are quite apparent to observers. But there's a whole spectrum of what is possible depending on how wide your umbrella is. Long-form gen art, as championed by AB, is particularly tough. But there's a world beyond that, including for example the use of parameters for customization. It's also a function of the audience. I'm sure there are folks to whom many projects look the same, although to experts their differences would be apparent. Traditionally artists would hone their practice over decades, but after the normalization here of large collections, slow evolution is somehow dissuaded. After all, the marginal cost of making a new output from a code is 0. jiwa our collectors are investors now, we must show our quarterly reports 😉 The possibilities around "art made with code" are endless, just beginning even, and will continue to expand as humanity slips deeper down the hole. though long form will get increasingly more difficult to make something that stands out, like you said the low fruit has been picked.. I think the 1/1/x model is also likely in its infancy, our world is created by these mass production molds that make millions of things, we're ever more appreciating novelty and rarity, and i think 1/1/x strikes a balance edg Of course there are artists who have navigated the business side well, particularly those who had a commercial practice before generative art attracted any attention. In general I see a few diverging trajectories: - there are artists who have taken up AI, combining that with old-fashioned techniques to broaden the scope of what they can create. - there is the RVTURN TO PHYSICAL group - and there are a few folks like me, who want to tinker with each line, avoiding AI. For me it's critical that a code gets to a place where I can essentially stop thinking logically and just surf the space of possibilities which, in practice, means turning on and off various lines of code, and adjusting parameters and that only works if there is a fairly tight link between the locus of control (code) and the output jiwa its seems there is a chance with vibe coding, the amount of people who can actually code will begin to dwindle from here, i agree that tinkering / pushing / seeing whats possible with an understanding of the code is really the joy of creating art with code, that said I do think some (many) releases are just parameter mashing and not truly pushing the code to the next level. I hope to see deeper exploration into new aesthetics, concepts, and process, not leaning into collectors’ desire to buy something that looks like something that was successful in the past (zombie formalism I believe). I tend to reject any known algorithm at the onset of my process, don't breathe flow field in my general direction, and I hope to see more work that is truly inventive, I think there will always be a place for this kind of work. another tick for the "generative art lives on" column, is the same argument for editions vs 1/1... network effects / community.. i think 1/1/x allows for network effects that works well with the internet and internet culture, so there is still a lot to be explored there as well edg right, I don't want to disparage the other approaches, which can work for other artists. I also believe there are still unexplored horizons! Do you start new projects from scratch? If I'm not implementing a specific algorithm, I usually start from something extant so my codes carry a lot of junk along, which I like of course they can collapse under their own weight jiwa its either a new project from scratch, or an old project copied forward. The work that eventually lead to Axo was just an idea to learn how to manipulate pixels from scratch, and continue the lynchian pull on the thread from there ha im very guilty of leaving a lot of commented code, you never know how an old snippet can combine with something new, or if a new path isn't as good as the old one, I check in my code / branch and all that, but I have lost special things along the way, it's nice to leave a trail of breadcrumbs if needed edg I was taking another look at Axo this morning. What I like in the dynamics is the collisions. It gives a sort of alternation between feelings of freedom and confinement That's the sort of thing that is hard to explore in another medium, and what keeps me optimistic about GOFGA (good old fashioned gen art) yes, very often I implement something, see that it is not working aesthetically, but return to it later after interim developments, and find the (aesthetic) solution jiwa thanks! yea it was just too wild at some point, needed to be contained. i lean towards chaos usually, but too much becomes distracting. the best work strikes the proper balance, most is too orderly for me the meditation of time, it really can reveal insights i hear ya... i have been looking at some of the (few) outputs you've shared for your upcoming verse release. I was wondering are you using feedback, or its evolving only with time? so much detail.. what was your process with this one, how did it start? edg ya. this is something that also works in physics, on thorny projects. Over time, contradictions can dissolve It depends what you mean by feedback, but it is basically physics -- some dynamics that is updated each time step. What is special is that I start from a blank slate-- complete zero canvas -- and all the structure is excited from instabilities. In the purest case, the term that creates structure has a tiny amplitude of one part in a million but over time that is enough to build up structure it's a bit like blowing a strong uniform wind over a pond at a very shallow angle. In this project, there were a few threads: one was that I wanted the notion of `falling' , but then to avoid triviality, the gravity changes direction I was interested in how, watching water fall, there is some pleasure in the predictability of it. Then I discovered this mechanism to excite waves, basically wave breaking. I haven't seen that elsewhere jiwa so, conceptual, but rooted in aesthetics yea it looks great, we both seem to gravitate to realtime, animated and sometimes interactive work, these are the best uses of the medium imo will there be any interactivity in this one? edg It's certainly the place that is least explored , and most difficult to explore in any other media. With a static piece, it's very hard to visit new territory You can zoom in, as in Atlas. The point here is that, from the far field, seeing all the complexity one may be tempted to think that it is just the result of some complex little demons doing their thing. but then you zoom in and you see that it is very smooth and continuous: all the information is in the interactions between simple elements jiwa agreed, it better be a damn good image edg I always feel that, if a piece leads falsely to some simple picture, you better show why that's too simple. jiwa yea i collected a few of these, and my favorite part is zooming in to the edge of the depth provided, its something for sure edg so, it has elements of fluid flow, but it's not a fluid simulation jiwa cool, I look forward to seeing more. i guess to swerve back towards touching on the AB500… to me that whole decision came from the weight of the crown, and trying to choose the best decision for all involved... it seemed there was too much pressure to continue to release successful projects, and that if one or too many didn't succeed, there was a feeling that it could signal the end. Imo they felt the weight of holding the whole space up, which will never last. So it feels like it was their effort to decentralize the responsibility of keeping gen art alive. And I think we, the artists, and community, are up to the task. i think snowfro is and will continue to be a great advocate for gen art, and he probably feels he can do that better now ( and keep his sanity ) edg ya, I see it similarly. Caps the manic period and takes pressure off AB to somehow, impossibly, keep things going at a scale at all related to the peak yes 100%. This gives him, and AB, some breathing room to go forward jiwa if anyone has worked with AB, they would know, they really do have the best intentions, the energy feels pure, which is rare CSA2D7 I think that makes a lot of sense for snowfro. I often think about governance - and in many ways I think you could think of AB as being a sort of governor (a centralizing force) for generative art. Raster just said he thinks AB had the biggest effect on generative since the computer But I do think you do have multiple questions - what is good for snow, what is good for AB (and AB is not monolithic - there are varying brands in there) and what is good for generative art? jiwa, you jokingly mentioned artists' quarterly reports (i dont know how literal that was) what is that like without sort of a safety net in AB? for future works? jiwa oh lol, no I was just referring to the buying of our work like it is any other crypto token that is meant to appreciate. if an artist steps back from social media a bit or is too "vulnerable" on social etc, which signals that there is no work behind done to progress and climb the NFT charts, it can be seen as weakness that can harm their market. Bryan Brickman wrote a pretty direct tweet about this, and I tend to agree with him on the implications. so filing quarterly reports was just a joke about how some of our collectors are looking at us like investments, which is by no means new but works differently in crypto art than trad art from a timeframe/expectation perspective not all collectors have these expectations of course, dont mean to overly generalize CSA2D7 I think what you’re saying is a sentiment felt by a lot of artists in “web3” jiwa in the end it is noise though, we should focus on creating the best work we can create for ourselves, and let the rest take care of itself.. with AB or without edg agreed. Regarding the future, I don't think the trajectory of generative art is tied up with AB. They opened the portal so to speak but now it lives on its own jiwa 100%... they REALLY opened up the portal, lets be grateful, and whoever wants to seize the opportunity lets make some incredible work and do the damn thing without curated projects, it may even be more accessible now for anyone to get a studio project and release something, there was a studio release by a new name a couple months ago that got some attention and sold some works.. Robert Baker I think? edg what's interesting and unclear to me is how many artists will tend to the monkish style of tinkering individual lines of code jiwa so an artist that may feel they missed the boat really shouldn't. Ab wants studio to succeed, they are sharing / promoting them on twitter, if the work is good, it will take care of itself edg the joy of changing a line and seeing its consequences unfold before your eyes is certainly timeless I felt it first in the 90s and still get it. yes, [AB Studio] is a wonderful opportunity. It can also be used for preservation (e.g. to archive off-chain generative works in an on-chain format) jiwa [monkish tinkering] is magical.. i think this can be done over years, but with releases along the way... the tending towards perfectionism is known to hold many artists back, though not all again, I wonder if this "changing of a line" will be replaced with "changing of a prompt" but thats a convo for another day CSA2D7 EDG’s first bullet point! edg right. I see no principled reason to exclude it, but for me most models are too much of a black box to be sensitive to small differences jiwa in this way, i think its still a very exciting time for an artist who is code literate.. there may not be many of us left in 20 years edg ya. wise man once said that humanity will have produced exactly one generation that understood computers and I think it bears some truth for my father's generation, cars were understood at a much deeper level whereas for me it's mostly a black box jiwa insane and prob true CSA2D7 It’s interesting because Mitch made a provocative statement that generative art is dead, but in many ways one could see generative art as the purest form of traditional computer art edg It's the sort of train of thought that will drive you insane if you tend to the apocalyptic. How many systems in which we are embedded are dependent upon esoteric expert knowledge? jiwa well im not exactly sure [Mitch] was saying that...though generative art can be defined in different ways, and if you mean long form, then using randomness to explore an algorithm certainly harkens back to what many were exploring at the beginning (from my understanding) edg I think there was some conflation between the medium and the movement. The movement may have reached its peak in terms of scale and mass interest (excluding AI), and will now become more niche. I think that's natural It doesn't mean that the medium is exhausted CSA2D7 For you - the movement includes the medium and the culture and ? edg the movement is the collection of work from a given time as it appears to outside observers. A simplification of the full state of affairs. ..just like you read about any named movement It just means that in the larger narratives about our relationship with technology, a particular type of generative art will have made its largest impact at a particular time. jiwa honestly i think people are hungry to be deeply impressed by generative art projects, it just doesnt happen that often these days edg this is also true of course! that's the low-hanging fruit aspect quantized with both artblocks and fxhash making significant piviots, feels like there could be a good era of more independently thought out projects that don't 1:1 conform to the 'generative format' that those two platforms helped automate CSA2D7 I dunno! I like Harms recent work quantizer and Juan Garcia’s habitar un momento! And ddust and atlas And Jan Robert leegtes walled garden I think there’s still a lot of interesting and dynamic work being released jiwa there you go, two examples [Quantizer & Habitar Un Momento] of projects people have been excited about recently... the desire is palpable imo edg yes, I was going to add, I think Mitch also meant the long-form type of project as in AB jiwa we will see if collectors can use their own eyes (and taste) to appreciate good independent projects that dont have a name like AB or Verse etc attached. i think it will work itself out long live gen art, and crypto art, making art, and collecting art and art art art a lot more to be gained by being positive 🙂 CSA2D7 Feels like a good place to end on (for now)! jiwa edg, we missed each other at the gen art summit last year, hope to run into you one of these days man 🙂 edg yes! I didn't know you were there. I hung out with sssluke a ton edg ya. time to wrap. I just got an email from my accountant didn't submit my quarterly CSA2D7 Preparing the ol quarterly reports jiwa get on it ser CSA2D7 Great conversation - I really enjoyed hearing both of your perspectives jiwa cheers! 🤝 edg thx for the virtual bench!