vitalik.eth@vitalik.eth

How I would do creator coins We've seen about 10 years of people trying to do content incentivization in crypto, from early-stage platforms like Bihu and Steemit, to BitClout in 2021, to Zora, to tipping features inside of decentralized social, and more. So far, I think we have not been very successful, and I think this is because the problem is fundamentally hard. First, my view of what the problem is. A major difference between doing "creator incentives" in the 00s vs doing them today, is that in the 00s, a primary problem was having not enough content at all. In the 20s, there's plenty of content, AI can generate an entire metaverse full of it for like $10. The problem is quality. And so your goal is not *incentivizing content*, it's *surfacing good content*. Personally, I think that the most successful example of creator incentives we've seen is Substack. To see why, take a look at the top 10: https://substack.com/leaderboard/technol… https://substack.com/leaderboard/culture… https://substack.com/leaderboard/world-p… Now, you may disagree with many of these authors. But I have no doubt that: 1. They are on the whole high quality, and contribute positively to the discussion 2. They are mostly people who would not have been elevated without Substack's presence So Substack is genuinely surfacing high quality and pluralism. Now, we can compare to creator coin projects. I don't want to pick on a single one, because I think there's a failure mode of the entire category. For example: Top Zora creator coins: https://www.coingecko.com/en/categories/… BitClout: https://www.businessofbusiness.com/artic… Basically, the top 10 are people who already have very high social status, and who are often impressive but primarily for reasons other than the content they create. At the core, Substack is a simple subscription service: you pay $N per month, and you get to see the person's articles. But a big part of Substack's success is that they did not just set the mechanism and forget. Their launch process was very hands-on, deliberately seeding the platform with high-quality creators, based on a very particular vision of what kind of high-quality intellectual environment they wanted to foster, including giving selected people revenue guarantees. So now, let's get to one idea that I think could work (of course, coming up with new ideas is inherently a more speculative project than criticizing existing ones, and more prone to error). Create a DAO, that is *not* token-based. Instead, the inspiration should be Protocol Guild: there are N members, and they can (anonymously) vote new members in and out. If N gets above ~200, consider auto-splitting it. Importantly, do _not_ try to make the DAO universal or even industry-wide. Instead, embrace the opinionatedness. Be okay with having a dominant type of content (long-form writing, music, short-form video, long-form video, fiction, educational...), and be okay with having a dominant style (eg. country or region of origin, political viewpoint, if within crypto which projects you're most friendly to...). Hand-pick the initial membership set, in order to maximize its alignment with the desired style. The goal is to have a group that is larger than one creator and can accumulate a public brand and collectively bargain to seek revenue opportunities, but at the same time small enough that internal governance is tractable. Now, here is where the tokens come in. In general, one of my hypotheses this decade is that a large portion of effective governance mechanisms will all have the form factor of "large number of people and bots participating in a prediction market, with the output oracle being a diverse set of people optimized for mission alignment and capture resistance". In this case, what we do is: anyone can become a creator and create a creator coin, and then, if they get admitted to a creator DAO, a portion of their proceeds from the DAO are used to burn their creator coins. This way, the token speculators are NOT participating in a recursive-speculation attention game backed only by itself. Instead, they are specifically being predictors of what new creators the high-value creator DAOs will be willing to accept. At the same time, they also provide a valuable service to the creator DAOs: they are helping surface promising creators for the DAOs to choose from. So the ultimate decider of who rises and falls is not speculators, but high-value content creators (we make the assumption that good creators are also good judges of quality, which seems often true). Individual speculators can stay in the game and thrive to the extent that they do a good job of predicting the creator DAOs' actions.

farcaster.xyz
by mishaderidder.eth12653 🥝5mofarcaster.xyz
Recommended by 2 curators
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This actually sounds interesting for Kiwi News, but I have to say that I didn‘t fully get the idea. So the DAO does what exactly with the coins?
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So the crypto content problem isn't lack of content, it's filtering and discovering quality content. Creator coins have failed because they reward social influence, not quality content.

(But isn’t this also the core problem of the trad art world? Being a cool hip artist is rewarded, instead of artist making quality work. Or in politics, the guy with the smooth talk and nice face, instead someone with actual quality ideas)

My take from it is that creator DAOs are essentially a kind of labels. I think the DAO takes a portion of the creator's proceeds and uses it to burn their creator coins. So it is meant to be a deflationary mechanism. By destroying coins, it reduces the total supply over time. The idea is that as creators earn money, some of that value flows back to coin holders through this burn mechanism, which should theoretically increase the value of remaining coins. 😵‍💫

Creators can still issue their own coins, but these tokens now function as prediction markets. Speculators bet on which creators will eventually be admitted to the DAO. When a creator gets admitted to the DAO, a portion of their personal tokens are burned. So it means speculators are incentivized to discover quality creators before they're recognized, because the token value is tied to DAO membership decisions rather than pure hype.

Personally I think this sounds pretty complex, I wonder who is going to do the speculating :) You have to be more like a talent scout, not a trader. Regarding Kiwi, it already values curation over quantity, so that’s a good start. The question would be whether you would want to add this financial layer, or if the current reputation-based curation is sufficient.
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Two things that I find interesting to highlight in this conversation:

1. The FC team has repeatedly said that their feed algorithm isn't great because there are too few good posts and too few people posting good posts. E.g. the X algorithm is open source, so technically a world-class recommendation algorithm is available that could be used to show the best posts.

2. Vitalik says there is a lack of quality and that quality comes from better discovery of content.

3. Vitalik says that incentivizing to create good content is not the way to solve the problem because good content already exists but isn't surfaced.

idk. I mean I do agree with all of this! In fact, I think to ask "how can we discover good content better/quicker?" is the right question.

That said, I think there's also more to a social network than just good content. E.g. you could argue that for a DAU, Kiwi News has decent content, because as you said Misha, we do care about discovering and curating.

I think the problem for e.g. Kiwi News could be that I don't know the best practice for when to surface content that is also timely. E.g. there is very little value to picking the top article one gets from visiting X and sharing it on Twitter, because Twitter has already determined that article to be great. Same is true for taking articles from Farcaster and sharing them to Kiwi. But same is also true for when opening Farcaster but having been on X before.

For me the formula is something else entirely. You have to create distribution by creating habits. So people have to visit these sites daily. You have to give people the option to opt into push notifications, emails, etc. And then, when you have many people visiting the site, then you start to have really well curated content eventually and your community can become upstream of some niche news category. IMO it's important that one stays in a niche too because content curation is extremely competitive.

Btw, if you remember, we once already incentivized curation with these 100 USDC prizes, right? Or was it submissions? It's true that if there was a way were we could reward those who spot the best content first, it would improve the site's quality overall!
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Yes, I agree with what you say. Especially the idea of creating distribution by creating habits. I feel that is exactly how Kiwi should be working. The question is, as you also mention, how to get more people in to curate? Also if there are a lot of people curating the voting mechanism will be going to do it's job.

Regarding incentives I have to think about what my publisher once said to me about winning the Paris Photo–Aperture PhotoBook Awards (the most prestigious photo book prize). He said it is good the be nominated, since you will get a lot of eyes on your book, but you should not win the prize, since then the "wrong" people will be going to buy your book. He meant with "wrong" people who would not read or enjoy the book (the main purpose of making a book), but would immediately seal it in plastic and put it in a dark drawer to wait for a moment to sell it for ten times the original price :) Totally different of course but still, in a way prizes might not be the ideal incentive, as we've also seen with the 100 USDC Kiwi prizes.

But what is?
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Oh, I see. That‘s very insightful.

Aside from giving out prizes, what else could we do?

E.g. we did the whole leaderboard thing a while ago and it somehow never felt like anything central to the overall concept.

I like that reddit and HN have an additional ranking within their submissions that‘s essentially ranking for the „best take“ on an article, which isn‘t something we have because I was too lazy to build it. I feel like that could still be tried because this could help to be early on a topic by posting a quality take.

Other than that, I‘m a bit bored and annoyed by all the points related features. I didn‘t have the impression they truly work. The only good one was adding the karma count to the user‘s user name while posting, kinda like a badge.
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What we could do is hope Vitalik includes Kiwi in his recent streak of the importance of decentrisation posts and endorse Kiwi News as the place to find quality signal. That would surely help a lot :)
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What we could do is hope Vitalik includes Kiwi in his recent streak of the importance of decentrisation posts and endorse Kiwi News as the place to find quality signal.

But how do we get there? I feel like we've tried to advertise Kiwi News to Vitalik a couple of times already but so far it hasn't been sufficient to make him shout us out.
This is crypto-style over-engineering all over agin.

We already have similar organization in real life called “magazine publisher”, and the N can be easily below 10-20. There’s no need for a creator coin but just stablecoin to sell the magazine and pay the writers.

And the assumption that “good creators are also good judges of quality” which is often *not* true, not because of ability but availability. There are reasons that editor becomes a professional job, and not many good writers choose to be editors, too.
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That said, if you were trying to sell something to receive stable coins, I‘d say you wouldn‘t have anyone buying in the crypto space.

We did this with the Kiwi Pass NFT, and while we did make 10k USD throughout 1.5 years, there were many other projects launched in the meantime that made millions
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