This actually sounds interesting for Kiwi News, but I have to say that I didn‘t fully get the idea. So the DAO does what exactly with the coins?

So the crypto content problem isn't lack of content, it's filtering and discovering quality content. Creator coins have failed because they reward social influence, not quality content.

(But isn’t this also the core problem of the trad art world? Being a cool hip artist is rewarded, instead of artist making quality work. Or in politics, the guy with the smooth talk and nice face, instead someone with actual quality ideas)

My take from it is that creator DAOs are essentially a kind of labels. I think the DAO takes a portion of the creator's proceeds and uses it to burn their creator coins. So it is meant to be a deflationary mechanism. By destroying coins, it reduces the total supply over time. The idea is that as creators earn money, some of that value flows back to coin holders through this burn mechanism, which should theoretically increase the value of remaining coins. 😵‍💫

Creators can still issue their own coins, but these tokens now function as prediction markets. Speculators bet on which creators will eventually be admitted to the DAO. When a creator gets admitted to the DAO, a portion of their personal tokens are burned. So it means speculators are incentivized to discover quality creators before they're recognized, because the token value is tied to DAO membership decisions rather than pure hype.

Personally I think this sounds pretty complex, I wonder who is going to do the speculating :) You have to be more like a talent scout, not a trader. Regarding Kiwi, it already values curation over quantity, so that’s a good start. The question would be whether you would want to add this financial layer, or if the current reputation-based curation is sufficient.

Two things that I find interesting to highlight in this conversation:

1. The FC team has repeatedly said that their feed algorithm isn't great because there are too few good posts and too few people posting good posts. E.g. the X algorithm is open source, so technically a world-class recommendation algorithm is available that could be used to show the best posts.

2. Vitalik says there is a lack of quality and that quality comes from better discovery of content.

3. Vitalik says that incentivizing to create good content is not the way to solve the problem because good content already exists but isn't surfaced.

idk. I mean I do agree with all of this! In fact, I think to ask "how can we discover good content better/quicker?" is the right question.

That said, I think there's also more to a social network than just good content. E.g. you could argue that for a DAU, Kiwi News has decent content, because as you said Misha, we do care about discovering and curating.

I think the problem for e.g. Kiwi News could be that I don't know the best practice for when to surface content that is also timely. E.g. there is very little value to picking the top article one gets from visiting X and sharing it on Twitter, because Twitter has already determined that article to be great. Same is true for taking articles from Farcaster and sharing them to Kiwi. But same is also true for when opening Farcaster but having been on X before.

For me the formula is something else entirely. You have to create distribution by creating habits. So people have to visit these sites daily. You have to give people the option to opt into push notifications, emails, etc. And then, when you have many people visiting the site, then you start to have really well curated content eventually and your community can become upstream of some niche news category. IMO it's important that one stays in a niche too because content curation is extremely competitive.

Btw, if you remember, we once already incentivized curation with these 100 USDC prizes, right? Or was it submissions? It's true that if there was a way were we could reward those who spot the best content first, it would improve the site's quality overall!

Yes, I agree with what you say. Especially the idea of creating distribution by creating habits. I feel that is exactly how Kiwi should be working. The question is, as you also mention, how to get more people in to curate? Also if there are a lot of people curating the voting mechanism will be going to do it's job.

Regarding incentives I have to think about what my publisher once said to me about winning the Paris Photo–Aperture PhotoBook Awards (the most prestigious photo book prize). He said it is good the be nominated, since you will get a lot of eyes on your book, but you should not win the prize, since then the "wrong" people will be going to buy your book. He meant with "wrong" people who would not read or enjoy the book (the main purpose of making a book), but would immediately seal it in plastic and put it in a dark drawer to wait for a moment to sell it for ten times the original price :) Totally different of course but still, in a way prizes might not be the ideal incentive, as we've also seen with the 100 USDC Kiwi prizes.

But what is?

Oh, I see. That‘s very insightful.

Aside from giving out prizes, what else could we do?

E.g. we did the whole leaderboard thing a while ago and it somehow never felt like anything central to the overall concept.

I like that reddit and HN have an additional ranking within their submissions that‘s essentially ranking for the „best take“ on an article, which isn‘t something we have because I was too lazy to build it. I feel like that could still be tried because this could help to be early on a topic by posting a quality take.

Other than that, I‘m a bit bored and annoyed by all the points related features. I didn‘t have the impression they truly work. The only good one was adding the karma count to the user‘s user name while posting, kinda like a badge.

What we could do is hope Vitalik includes Kiwi in his recent streak of the importance of decentrisation posts and endorse Kiwi News as the place to find quality signal. That would surely help a lot :)

What we could do is hope Vitalik includes Kiwi in his recent streak of the importance of decentrisation posts and endorse Kiwi News as the place to find quality signal.

But how do we get there? I feel like we've tried to advertise Kiwi News to Vitalik a couple of times already but so far it hasn't been sufficient to make him shout us out.

This is crypto-style over-engineering all over agin.

We already have similar organization in real life called “magazine publisher”, and the N can be easily below 10-20. There’s no need for a creator coin but just stablecoin to sell the magazine and pay the writers.

And the assumption that “good creators are also good judges of quality” which is often *not* true, not because of ability but availability. There are reasons that editor becomes a professional job, and not many good writers choose to be editors, too.

That said, if you were trying to sell something to receive stable coins, I‘d say you wouldn‘t have anyone buying in the crypto space.

We did this with the Kiwi Pass NFT, and while we did make 10k USD throughout 1.5 years, there were many other projects launched in the meantime that made millions